Ignorance & religion walk hand-in-hand

Ok I am tired of Religous fanatics (mostly christian) trying to impress their religion on you. When you debate your beliefs and they refer to the bible and tell you that your facts from books and common knowledge are disputable because of lack of evidence. I know Jesus was known to exist. But what the f*ck ?!?! He could have been another guy making peoples lives better. Like Dr. Phil. So in 2000 years when they find tabloids about Dr. Phil is he going to be the next prophet ? I see that Christians are scared of death and it makes life easier to believe that when you die you go to a happy place ... If you look at most religions they are based around one thing, a 'higher' god. So if my books and knowledge are fake than isnt a 2,000 year old book that has supposedly gone unchanged fake as well ? Isnt Christianity another reason to blame their sins on something else than themselves ? I dont want to hear anyone preach because my prespective wont change. I dont want flames. I want someone who can either back me up or hold an intelligent arguement based on facts.

Wow, that was very, lets say... Expected. You see what I mean. People need reassurance in their life, their dependancy on other beings to make them happy. Why can't you make yourself happy ? Also when Jesus was living was a time when sea monsters ravaged the ocean, when dragons pillaged medi-eval towns. Now dragons were thought to be the latest version of dinosaur that went extinct during that time. Sea monster stories came from the sight of ocean dwelling crocadiles and giant squid. Now I cannot deny your enthusiasm in christianity but you need to look at the facts, the Bible is fiction, it always will be. It is like reading Tolkeins Lord Of The Rings and believing that lesser gods invented elves, humans, orcs, wizards, and the demons and they died out before we became intelligent and a new race of humans were born from it.

ok I cant contradict you nor back you up..but I do belive you hold a great point.I am still very young and I do not yet know what my religeous beliefs are.theyve baisically hoped around from one end to another for the past 3 years.the only thing I do belive in now...is myself and those around me.I agree that we alone hold they key to our success as well as to our failings.I do not belive that there is a god...nor do I wish there to be 1...but I dont belive every thing can be explained by science either.and although im not shure wheather god exists or not...I do think that people use him as a sort of escape...a place to put their sins and sorrows on instead of takin responseability.and as some sort of mask from what they fear.
afterall if god hated homosexuals would he have let them be....and isint the idea of god that he accepts all of his children as they are as long as they are good?
so why must all these religions ban homosexuals?
how is it that they belive god can pardon a murderer or a rapist but condem a fag???
have these religions not all been wrong...or am I simply a liberist trying to accept the sin that is loving someone despite of their sex...or race?
as I've said before im not shure what I belive....I have many thoughts and all of them vary
and I sumtimes contradict myself
well my state of mind is this.
accept every1 and dont judge because they can just as easily judge you.
well thats all for now
ty
-v-

I've always found it increadibly ironic that bush goes on about islam fundamentalists on one hand but supporting the teaching of 'intelligent design' (things are to complicated to explain, therefore they must have been created by a supernatural force. e.g. God) alongside evolution. This is a pint where I know I should keep a blank mind but it feel strongly that evolution is a scientific theory and 'intelligent design' is poorly concealed creationism.

Its perfectly fesable to have christianity and science alongside each other but science doesnt pretend to be a religion (mostly) and it is silly for the church to pretend religion is a scientific theory.

Lol soz for the rant...

Great great comment, mr_smedheader. And mostly true, I really like it! First I have to tell you that I am not a religious person (but somehow spiritual). Yet, here are some of my beliefs:
Religion has always been used as a pretext, true and it has mostly a social function (social institution) and so on, but it gives people an epitome and this is good. Clearly it was modified during the ages and probably entirely written by people, but...not all the facts in the Bible are fiction. I guess it has some good part of the truth in it, and the rest was invented according to...the needs :D Don't forget that during the history of mankind, there were many works of the same kind, and they all have some things in common. Try reading a few books from Erich von Daniken, you will probably like them. They are good for all of you. Also, if you read Mahabharata, Ramayana, the Poem of Gilgamesh and so on, you will find some common points, although they were written long long before the Bible. So maybe like 5% of it is true, and the rest...belongs to the priests and to those who have copied it.

People have the need indeed for something...greater, to be guided/ruled?, because most of them are not up to it and because this way they escape the responsability of doing some things. You can see that before, the world was not as you see it today, and all that you mentioned are because of men's fault. Homosexuality? Too large a subject to discuss here. I would talk for ages about these enormous topics.

I also believe that you don't have the free choice that you think you have. You cannot choose almost or anything at all. I believe in fate. Proof: ask a gipsy /true fortune teller about your future and then try to change it. Really, that would be a life experiment! :D

Avoid the religious fanatics. They have a purpose for doing that. Believe what you want about religion, but my advice would be to avoid them.

Bye for now, I am curious about that test. It might be fun.

hey I took that test too although it was a while back...I got satanism followed by buhdisim...I dont remember the rest.lol

I too am nott religeous but spiritual.thats the perfect way to put it.oh and smed very briliant anology on your part there.sigh youre all so wise....lol

Buddhism 96%
Paganism 79%
Islam 63%
Hinduism 63%
agnosticism 54%
atheism 46%
Christianity 38%
Judaism 38%
Satanism 33%

Probly shouldnt post this in this thread but it is funadvice not seriousadvice :P so im going to anyway. We love reincarnation hehe.

yay to buddists!!!!!!!!!!!!
and saintinist
but I prefer to stick with the massons
-v-

I believe that some sort of ark (not arc) existed. Species back then were quite different from the species you see today. Most of them. Only the rest I believe to be fiction. Maybe a space ark? :D About the Pope doing that...no objection. It's over my head anyway.

Problem is tho that if you say species were different back then you agknowledge that god didnt create all animals as they are today and then you arent following the bible anyway :P

I am not following the Bible, it is obvious The theory of evolution is mostly correct. If we listen to it, man evolved from some species of small animal, almost squirrel-like. That I don't believe though. Changes in nature cannot be too important when you think in terms of intelligence, but can be great when you think in terms of adaptation. This is why man hasn't evolved from a sea creature or some squirrel :D I don't want to say more :D

Probably from NOTHING. It was probably created! The missing chain, no other similar evolutions in other species...why apes don't turn into humans anymore and so on. I believe man was created, and here we have a plus for the Bible. Maybe some old experiment, who knows...Oh, I mean...alien experiment, this way would be more correct. But who cares? :D

Ok Man hasnt evolved from monkey but from a distant relative. This shows your leangth of reason. Evolution is a known fact none the less a theory. This is why we have a thousand different kind of squirrells to fit all these habitats. I cant say more got to go to school.

He he...what a basic question. Please read again. Man has evolved indeed, but only in the long run, if we consider the huge amount of time of evolution. I am saying that it had was and then, of course, it's evolved. But we are talking here about at least tens or hundreds thousand years. Evolution is right, of course, but only to some point. It explains how mankind has evolved, how it has survived (intelligence :P), but it cannot explain how mankind was created. This is clear. So I think in the first place man was created and then it's evolved. It might also be possible that mankind was created in multiple instances, and this might be the result of the obvious differences among the races. Because it's again unexplainable how man migrated from Africa to Asia or Europe, because the continents had split a long time before that and the rest should be obvious...impossible. Even if I were wrong here (I expect opinions), it is still obvious to me at least that mankind was first created and then it's evolved into the little squirrels that ask us how to mas*urba*e better ) Just kidding here :P

my opinion
I couldnt give a f**k how man was created !!!only that we have been .but for what purpose......I mean has earth truly benifuited from our existence????all we do is destroy the planet!!!!ughhhhhh
and be incredibly stupid!!!haha
anyways I don't know know why I said all that im bored and I needed and argument thnx people
oh and dont comment this....its really not how I feel...not completely anyways...im just bored.
p3ac3
-v-

lol ok
I dont have a religion...im just exploring my options for now
0.o
~
and to tell you the truth sometimes im not even nshure god exists
yes I do belive in ghosts
im assumin you mean life and truth be it I dont know....but I dont much care
lol
your welcum!!!!!!!!
vAnNiLlA

Mr. Smedheader, no offense, but if you read the bible/Torah properly you wouldn't have such questions. Have you ever heard of Rashi, he lived till the year 1064 and wrote a simple translation of the bible for which in his time, 5-year-olds could understand easily. I'm going to address your yellow block first with Rashi's commentary:
1)When were the luminaries created? They were created ont eh first day and on the fourth day He (G-d) commanded them to me suspended in the sky. Similarly, all the creations of the skies and earth were created on the first day and each one was fixed in its proper place on the day that was decreed upon it.
You may ask: Why did G-d create light first of all, only then to hide it?
Answer; Because the ultimate purpose of Creation is that G-d's presence should be revealed in the lowest realms therefore, at the very outset of creation G-d made a 'mission statement' declaring what the ultimate purpose of the world should be - revelation; like an architect (so to speak) who draws up plans before creation.
2 )You say that the moon is not a luminary? The definition is: a) a celestial body, as the sun or moon. b) a body, object, etc., that gives light.
So, the moon gives light - it doesn't matter if it's light is from the sun.
It's close to 1 now, but if you care for me to continue, let me know.
And BTW, faith keeps people alive. It gives them something in life to have emotions for and care for other for themselves.

Well, you'll have to come with something better if you want to contradict mr_smedheader, because he is right about many things (not completely right, though!) :D

P.S: He's 100% right about the moon. About the rest...I don't want to start over :P

No offense, but you have to look at what the bible says word for word... a luminary is not a source of light and neither is the moon.
Originally, the sun and the moon were of equal size, since both were called 'great,' but then the moon complained that two powers cannot share one realm. So God as Judge diminished its size. Because God diminished the size of the moon, God compensated it by creating additional heavenly bodies, the stars.
Yeah, I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but I stand strong in my faith and no one and nothing can bring it down.
Ye, Mr Smedheader is right in MANY things.

to me religion is warfare, religion is crap, wut matters to me is the relationship you have with god not wut church you go to,if you follow the bible and follow gods word thats all that matters

How can you look at this beautiful world and say God doesn't exist? I'm sorry that some people are forcing their beliefs at you. Just remember that not all christians are like that. God has done so much for me. He stayed by my side through my father's death. I felt so alone, but I felt comfort in knowing God was there with me.

Though there is no direct proof he's there, it's in your mind's eye. For example, I believe in the wind. I've never seen the wind, but I know it's there. How? We've seen the effects of the wind.

I believe in God. I've never seen God, but I know he's there. How? I've seen the effects of God. And it's a beautiful thing.

I am a Christian, and I disagree with your argument. However, I don't want you to think I'm pushing Christianity, I simply would like to point out a few things you might not have considered.
First of all, I do believe that you must have evidence to prove facts. The thing most people don't realize is the greatest evidence is right in front of our noses. You say you don't believe in a 'higher power'. Take a minute to look around you. Life forms, nature. How can any of this be possible without a higher power??? Take the human body for example. Scientists have studied it since as far back as we can trace. There are still mysteries. And humans have yet to find a way to create a human from scratch. How do you suppose we got here? Only some divine power could have thought of such a magnificent stucture, and put things together (organs, blood flow, etc) to work together in such a completely harmonious way. That in itself is significant evidence for a 'higher power', a God.
Secondly, I noticed a lot of people saying that if there was a God, why does he let bad things happen to us?? Well, simply because God is not there to make our lives perfect. He never said that our lives would be. In fact, the Bible speaks about suffering. Romans 8:17, Having a relationship with Christ isn't about having a perfect life, but how you deal with those hard situations, and learning to be satified with the things you have. Philippians 4:11-13.
To really understand the Bible you have to know the author, God. As with anything else, if you go into it with a critical mindset, you're not going to get much out of it. You have to be opened minded. If you have any questions about anything I've said please write back.

Why do you repeat yourself over and over ? May I ask that ? Also If you think about the whole concept of Christianity, its kind of demented. Sure its built upon good morales and great life standards but when most Christians become corrupted then you have to take into consideration that Christianity isnt the best religion. It has a heavy following, only because it insures a happy life after death and a dreadful punishment for those who dont believe.

I guess I need to to explain what your asking. For one thing Christians shouldn't become corrupted. I don't really understand what you mean by that. And Christianity isn't about religion. Yes, there are guidelines in the Bible that you have to follow, but it's more about your personal relationship with God. It's not about traditoin and rituals.... or it shouldn't be. Do you understand what I'm saying?

aghhhhhhhhhhhh so much has chnged where are my people ...and smed why wont you defend your argument????sigh...well im back
hit me up k
-v-

The wonder of the universe around us and of our own minds is indeed overwhelming, but it seems to me that 'God' is just a human concept invented to try to make sense of it. Existence is a profound and perhaps inherently impenetrable mystery, but I think ascribing it to an equally mysterious 'creator' is just adding another layer -- it doesn't bring us any closer to true understanding.

But even if -- for whatever reason -- you believe God DOES exist, what would lead you to believe in one of the numerous human versions of God over another? People tend to believe in whatever religion they were brought up in; what would lead you to believe that you just happened to be born into the culture which got it right.

I think more important than the light discrepancies is the fact that you cannot create a species from just 2 people (A&E). There has to be a viable gene pool, otherwise the species will die out through inbreeding. Remember there were other hominids that evolved for awhile as well, but just didn't make it. There are other animals, mammals mainly, that are almost as evolved, such as dolphins, but may just need more time to develop. Just because they don't speak English doesn't mean they aren't intelligent and can't talk to each other.

I'm just making a point. Though I'm a largely spiritual person, there is so far no perfect, completely correct religion, and religious texts are mainly just metaphors and fables, written by people trying to understand all the dichotomies around us and the human condition. There's nothing that says evolution cancels out a spiritual reality, or vice versa. It's sad that people have to tout their religious -heresy- as fact and force it on others.

hello ! badonkadonk here ! I feel that the bible holds a message for everyone, the parts you get are meant for u, the parts you dont, might be in the future to figure out later, because the bible is a book you read over and over, they also have, help you study books, but we all have a brain that tells us good from wrong, and we all should follow our good hearts. not that hard to figure out, sometimes we make things more difficult than they actually are. we all should be and do good, its pretty simple!

In answer to the ORIGINAL question, I ask you to consider something. It is a religious belief to spread the word of God. When people are 'bible thumping', they mean no disrespect to you, they are only doing what they believe they need to do. Don't judge or hate people for doing what they think is right. As far as all of the philosophy you have touched on, clearly something has made you consider issues of religion. It clearly bothers you to be uncertain about the subject, and all the information and two sided arguments won't help much. There is conflicting information at every turn concerning religion, so one has to discover one's OWN beliefs. Read the Bible for yourself.

I can't really answer this question, I've always felt people regardless of religion are blinded by their faith. As if I'm right and you're wrong. I attend a Baptist church and what really gets to me is they(meaning most Christen churches) will not fellowship with a church just down the street, even when they teach basically the same thing, even don't agree which bible is correct as if in most cases they call a bible the original KJV the only bible---I've read some excerpt's from the original KJV and really couldn't understand it. May I ask what version's do Christian's who speak a different language's read and study?

The most important question a person can ask oneself is this: If I died today, where would I spend Eternity ?

I haven't reads all postings but would like to comment.
I reached a point in my life where I just didn't have the answers anymore. I didn't know what to do and it was driving me crazy. That was when I decided to start going to church again and letting go of some of my problems. It really helped me think more clearly and from a different perspective.
I find it much more comforting accepting God into my life and believing in him than trying to disprove everyones else's beliefs. And don't we all want to enjoy all of the time that we get to spend on this earth.
Get over yourself.

Fact: Our whole calander system is based on a time Jesus died. Then came back to life.

Fact: The part of you that gives you life and a free spirit to choose came from some where. And it will go some where. We did not just happen!! We are given life.

Fact: It is so sad that you are nieve enough to think there is not life after death. Our spirit does live on.

Fact: The part of life God gave you to live is going back to him. How much of your free spirit goes with it is up to you that is the choice you make.

I hope and pray you come to realise this some day and receive the truth and God will set you free. Don't worry some day you will see.

A caterpiller may think it is dying when it builds a cocoon then dies when it closes its tomb.
Then in time becomes another life.

Accept God's gift then share it with other. You will find life to be more rewarding and fun trully fun and full of life.

Only TRUE joy can be found in Jesus. For one thing, Jesus didn't live in Medi-eval times... And what do dragons and dinosuars have to do with Christianity??? The Bible is not fiction.. It has make many prophacies that have, in fact, come true. You said yourself you need to look at the facts. So what facts are you looking at? Talkin about dinosaurs and extiction and such, I hope you're not basing your argument and Darwin's theory of evolution. I hope someday you see what I'm saying, and find the truth. I'll be praying for you!

Well I feel sorry for you if you think this is all there is.

The Bible is not fiction.

Just because you relate fictional characters to a true path that can be followed back through time suporting the truth of the Bible. Does not make it fictional it makes you narrow minded and naive to think you are it and that is all there is. You poor lost sole. Believe it or not!

Whether you accept the fact or not, you are supporting my argument against Christianity. You are saying the same thing that I have been saying. You are saying the Bible is not fictional yet you cannot show me valid facts supporting your opinion. I am trying to point out this. A week ago I went to youth group, I questioned everything they were telling me. The Pastor called my parents and made me go home because I was disrupting their teachings. I have been to more than 20 churches and have had similiar treatment. I was even resented and was never shown the kindness that Pastors and church leaders were believed to have posessed. Because I was questioning what I was being 'taught' I was a blasphemer and looked down upon. I am 15. I am still in the process of finding the truth, I am very wise. Now you are going to say, 'Obviously not because what you are saying against God.' Now I am going to tell you this, do you know the difference between knowledge and wisdom ? Because the Bible teaches you knowledge, and I am pretty sure it says that. Now wisdom contradicts the knowledge The Bible is feeding you. You are fed all these facts so you cannot decipher : Wisdom from Knowledge, and vica versa. So your wisdom becomes distorted and in return your logic becomes distorted, your reasoning and problem solving abilities. If God says in the Bible that the Pawn in chess cant be moved two spaces forward on the first turn, even though the game was invented for war strategies and that is the only logical reason a pawn is there, then war would be much different today.

elinthial, this is what I know to be true:
when I was 9 years old I repented of my sin and asked the Lord Jesus Christ to come into my heart....He did and the Holy Spirit took up residence in my heart and changed my way of thinking/my life....over the years I have been so richly blessed....so, what makes one a Christian ?....one who is saved / has received freely offered salvation (John 3:16) and strives to live one's life, praising, only saying and doing those things which are pleasing God....I say again, striving

faith is the evidence of things NOT seen

a person has a choice of what they do about Jesus....they either accept Him or reject Him, there's no 'riding the fence'....I hope and pray you'll accept Him before it's too late

God Bless You !!

It is too late. I am too far into the dark side. (( For god loved the world so, he gave his only begotten son. For those who believe in him will not perish but will have eternal life.)) I am not lieing to myself anymore. I will not be something I am not. I will not condemn myself to a horrid religion. I dont want to live under a Jealous god, an ugly god.

I'm a proud Agnostic, and I always am stuck putting up with Mormons and Catholics shunning me, or preaching at me, telling me I'm going to hell and that God hates me and yada yada yada. Religion isn't as pretty as they want to make it seem.

Elinthial - If you have such a problem with Christians, why are you spending so much time trying to prove them wrong? Why are you going to youth groups? Are you hoping that one of these visits, someone will be there that can help you understand God? Remember that we are all only people and Christians and their leaders are not perfect. They get angry and annoyed just like everyone else.
Maybe you're just looking for something to believe in. Reading your first posting really made me angry but your more recent postings just make me feel sorry for you. I hope you can find something that will help you have a little faith. At your age, there are a lot of questions that go unanswered. What you will learn as you get older that there are no concrete answers to the big questions. You just have to have faith...

I go to youth groups to test out possibilities. I try to prove facts for my self I dont assume. I wanted to see the reactions of these people. I find Christians ignorant and mentally impaired.

You don't need to go to all those meetings to try and find the answers....just read the number 1 best seller: THE BIBLE

All I know is, if you meet me and don't get to know me, you've lost nothing....but if you meet Jesus and don't get to know Him, you've lost EVERYTHING !

If you feel the need to try and belittle me and my faith, I take that as a badge of honor...for likewise was my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ attempted to be mocked/belittled....then came Day 3 !!

although you and I are not worthy or ever could be worthy, Jesus paid the price for your and my sins on that cross

look at the news these days...then look at the read the book of Revelations...they read the same !...His return appears soon, please don't be 'left behind'

I have to say God is real !! I have been in many churches and I do not agree with some people or preachers .If you have any questions about the Bible read the bible from front to back . before making up your mind I pray that in doing so ,.(and I know this is true ) that god will revile him self to you.

Actually it's not a fair argument to compare Doctor Phil with Jesus Christ. While I can understand why you would question the bible, I know that Doctor Phil didn't die and raise again from the dead. No average human can do that! And you also made a statement that the Bible hasn't changed. Actually the Bible has changed. There is both and old testament and a New testament along with ,I beleive, 600 different translations of it throughout the world. Originally it was only written in Greek and Hebrew. While it is true that it has been a long time since the bible has changed, you must understand that it took a rediculous amount of years for the Bible to even be written. This is because it was written very meticulousely and carefully. And even though a new Bible has not been written for a while, Many artifacts, such as ancient sea scrolls for just one example, have been found giving proof that the word of the Bible is infact real.

Why does it matter to you anyway? If a fanatic wants to believe something let them. It's causing no harm to you. Sure they talk a lot about what they believe, but there's more to them then that. Just give them a chance.

I dont like the above guys answer. I hate religion only because more people have died because of it than any other reason. your headline is true, it does walk hand in hand and the #s are shocking

Buddhism 96%
Paganism 79%
Islam 63%
Hinduism 63%
agnosticism 54%
atheism 46%
Christianity 38%
Judaism 38%
Satanism 33%

thats a lot of ignint peeps. lol

Saying 'Ignorance & religion walk hand-in-hand' is in itself and ignorant statement. Many, many highly educated and intelligent people were and are Christian. Isaac Newton was a Christian. So was Blaise Pascal, the creator of Calculus. I am a Computer Engineer. My good Christian friend is a microbiology professor at a very major university.

The statement that more people have died because of religion than any other reason is a myth. World War II, in which 70 million people died, was not fought because of religion. More Americans died in the Civil War than in any other; this war was not fought because of religion. Most people die of sickness or natural causes. Look up the leading causes of death - cancer, heart disease, old age, accidents.. not religious wars.

I do no blame my 'sins' on anyone other than me; I take responsibility for my own actions.

The more archaeological digs there are in the Middle East, the more accurate the Bible has proven to be. For years, skeptics doubted the existence of King David. Now, his existence is scientifically proven. For years, skeptics doubted the story of Joshua and the battle of Jericho. Archeology proved that the walls did come tumbling down. These are just two example.

If you want evidence, look at the people whose lives were changed for the better because of their conversion to Christ.

Well it is clear you have no clue.
So an intelligent conversation with you is out of the question.
You already think you know it all. SORRY!! You don't
Sucks to be you!!
Don't worry you will get it in the end.
If you don't get it you never will.

First of all if man was evolved from anything such as a monkey or squirrel, why then do monkeys and squirrels still exists? I thought a creature would evolve because it was necessary for them to survive. So that means that there should not be any monkeys left or whatever you think that man evolved from. People look for 'cold hard' facts when trying to figure out if there is a God. He has given you proof through all of his creations. Look at the mountains, the human body, and the solar system. I find it hard to believe that a 'big bang' made a planet that just happens to go around the sun in 365 days. Also for those that believe in evolution how do you explain everything else such as the planets? Where did they evolve from? Exactly. My friend has a dvd of an archeaologist that spent over a decade to find artifacts that proved that there is not a God. There were some things that he could not find, however the things that he did find lined up with what the bible teaches. That man is now a preacher. Back to the evolution theory if it is true, why dont we see it happening today. I dont see any monkeys having human babies. Most people have realized deep down inside that there is a God but they are scared to admit it. Or they may feel that being a christian is boring. I am here to confess that being a christian is not boring at all. The peace of mind knowing that my soul is going to be with God in heaven is a feeling that I can not describe.

There is only one church. The bible only mentions the church of christ. The other churches(baptist, lutheran,methodists, mormon etc..) are not even mentioned in the bible. Those are man made religions. Christ paid for the church through his blood, therefore the church is his. Hence the name church of christ.

God is not mean or ugly. He allows things to happen in your life to either get your attention, or to make you stronger. God does not deny homosexuals however, they do have to change their ways in order to please him.

There is so much I have to say but I will wrap it up for now. God has already proven that he exists, there is only one church and God wants to spare your soul on the day of judgement but you have to believe in him and do what he says.

Well maybe you think that 'Ignorance and Religion walk hand in hand' because you have no religion. Maybe people with religion thing that a lack of religion and ignorance walk hand in hand. It's a about perspective.

elinthial,
There is a difference between Dr. Phil and Jesus: the people that like Dr. Phil have (not yet, at least) acclaimed him as divine, the living Son of God. The people that knew Jesus best did. If there was not something extraordinary about Jesus, if he was just another failed, condemned and executed rabble-rouser or preacher, why? Why not just give up and go home? Because he gave them something that changed their life forever. And they found it even beyond death. _That's_ the difference. It was so important, they were even willing to die rather than give it up.

Is the faith a fraud? Ha! What did the disciples really get, but lots of hard work, persecution, and death? How many people die for a lie, for a fraud? The Apostles and many others did. Instead of many recanting their folly, only a few did.

As for the Bible being less credible because it has (doubtjully) remained unchanged for 2000 years, we now have scraps of texts from about the 120s, longer texts from later in the 100s, and (nearly) complete Bibles from by about 400. There are no major changes, other than scribe's errors and emmendations, in that time. No, we have the texts from within a generation or two of when they were written, and that was within a generation or so from the actual experiences. They reflect some pretty good history, as interpreted by the faith of those who lived it.

I don't see Christians as afraid of death, but rather as facing death with new confidence. I don't see Christians as blaming others for their sins, but accepting the responsibility for their own sins, and doing something (in God) to heal the harm they've caused. Is this ignorance, or a new understanding of the world that sees more deeply and more accurately than ever before.

I agree with Chesterton: It is not that Christianity has been tried and found wanting. It is rather that too often it has been found difficult, and left untried.

Ask yourself one question: 'Why is there something rather than nothing?'

I must give a hand to the Christians. This was a debate, while they are the only ones left talking. Huh, what happend to those who challenged this, oh wait they left cause they dont want to hear it. Thats right they fuss about hearing it ,but leave when they are being challenged about it or even reasoned with. Wonder why that is? Why do you attack faith but hide when its not looking good in your favior. Cause where ignorant, maybe your just really childesh and just go off when its not your way. Well If you dont believe then stop going and ruining it for others. If you want to test something test your self. What do you believe? What can you do in this Life? What is best in life for you? These are questions you should focus on, not why Christians want to tell me there is a God and that He loves me. Dont you have something better to do with your life then this? Please, its sad. If you dont like it then focus on something else, no one is forcing anything on you. So stop crying about it, cause your the only one that can change that.

Bottom line: A person either accepts or rejects Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savour - no in-between - the choice comes with eternal consequences.

Ignorance Could be defined as trying to reason religion or politics with one person on the internet on a public forum.

the false views consist in the belief that things are substantial,that they are really produced and really destroyed. a rope does not really exist,since it dipends for its existence on the threads that compose, the world is only a process,an eternal chain of cause and effects.what arises in dependence is devoid of an own being.consequently it is unreal.the knowledge of the universal voidness is liberation.the man who realizes that all is void,thereby stopped the creation of illusions by his mind,has destroyed the empircal reality.which is nothing else that one of these illusions created by his mind.ignorant persons are attached to forms,those in the middle become detached,those who possess a lofty mind,who know the true nature of forms become liberates.that is to say established in the middle way which denies equally being,existence,and non being,non existence.the real meaning of voidness is profound,

Dear elinthial,

I hope you are still here, at least on occassion.

Please don't give up on God. God is not an ugly god at all, at least not the one I believe in. God is a god who loves us, who does not give us up for lost even when we strayed and crippled ourselves. True, God could blot us out as a bad lot and start over--but then it wouldn't be _us_ who God saved. Instead God chose the harder way and sent his own Son to show us the way back, to lead us and give us strength for the journey.

True, Christians have high ideals, which we rarely live up to. We admit it. We are all sinners, after all. We fall, and need to get up again, and again, and again. . . . If we were not sinners, we wouldn't need the Church or a savior. But the truth is, we are fallen, we dream of better, and God offers it to us. No, Christianity (to refer to the original question) is not a way to blame our sins on somebody else. Christianity is to take responsibility for our own sins and begin to do something about them.

God will accept you, God still loves you. Join us, if you dare!

wow I am convinced that all the religious peeps that replied to this post are bone heads... for zonemaster; that answered after my last post. you are a bone head because you contradicted yourself, I said more peeps have died because religion than any other cause and you replied 'nooo, the leading cause of death is from disease' well any time there was an advance in medical technology or technology itself that person was tortured and killed for being a sorcerer or advocate for the devil. ooo... and for the person that wrote 'if man evolved from animals then why do they still exist' you are a bonehead for trying to persuade someone in your argument without any evidence to back it... there are many explanations for this. maybe if you did your own independent research instead of listening and believing every bias ignorant idiot you would be able to persuade someone otherwise. it seems like all you fairy tale believers are Sooo closed minded, anyone could make you believe anything, like the controlling businesses in the united states e.g. supplement, health care or the gov itself. perfect little sheep... and e ways... im sure that everything I just said will bounce off the thick skulls of all the religious people that will reply to this post as well, so this was for all of you normal peeps

Once again... NO ONE have proven anything in here...

Hmmm...

So, that makes... ME right.

religion teaches you to judge people.
its all bullsh*t, unless you just accept everyone.

I would like to thank Ethinial for posting this discussion. It has brought a great deal of attention to Christianity. I find it very interesting that many of the posts from the non-Christians are insulting and extremely negative. This makes me wonder how happy you are with your lives and also why you feel the need to insult others beliefs. There is a course offered at many churches http://alphana.org/ which is presented by a minister from the U.K. who was an athiest like many of you. These courses are open to anyone interested and all views and opinions are welcome. It is a wonderful forum for you to discuss your views and maybe understand Christianity a little better. There has got to be a better way for you to discuss your views than calling people with different beliefs from yourself a bonehead.

Bill maher is right... you religious believers o wait I should say followers are just a bunch of kids 'childish mentallity'. I was talking to someone today at work about religion; something you should never do... but and e ways it ended up being a logical conversation at first and ended up with him becoming defensive and bone headed 'not rational' and was pointless talking to him aft like 2 are 3 minutes. just like a child, la la la la la I cant hear u. duuu. just like the guy there4u above throwing cheap comments out to degrade my image or something... and the stupid childish response from captain assassin about 3 above. and e ways, I hope all of you get around to seeing bill mahers documentary 'religulous' when it comes out.

I agree with dw5386
I doesn't make sense to talk to those people. Just let them be and hope they don't
send their children to the same schools the went to.

Here are some interesting arguments they lost so far, in the approximate
time-sequence. It is easy to see that religion lost more and more ground,
but always tried to oppose the next idea until it was known fact.

Earth is flat
Human culture is static (no technical progress occurs)
The Moon is a light, not another world
The Planets are lights, not worlds
The universe is filled with air
Earth is the center of the solar system
The Stars are not other suns, but small lights
Earth is 4000 Years old
The animal and plant world is static (no new species or extinctions)
The Solar system is the center of the universe
Our Galaxy is the only one (list about 1900)
The Universe is static (lost in the 1920's)
Heart transplantations will remove the soul from the human (lost in the 50's)
There are no other solar systems, only naked stars (lost in the 90's)

In one thing they were right: the Moon DOES revolve around the earth

Bible is bullsh*t ...corrupted...full of scientific errors !!

>>>Bible is bullsh*t ...corrupted...full of scientific errors !!

Funnily enough, the Qur'an is based on the Bible. Just saying.