God exists 3- the metamorphosis

Hey hi, again. well I just want my question answered, so come on guys lets try to keep it civil this time. let's debate like civilized people so this question doesn't get locked.

Here is the question for semi 1900 and anyone else interested (if you...

need clarification of the question see the question god exists 2-the revival.) that will get everyone up to date.

-okay well even though you said the singularity was 'basically, the center of a black hole' I will disregard that mistake of yours. Second of all you use the word subspace and I am not exactly sure if you know what you are talking about or just spitting out radom words in order to sound smart. Here is a list of the ways the word subspace can be used.

Subspace may refer to:

Subspace topology, in topology and related areas of mathematics
Euclidean subspace, in linear algebra, a set of vectors in n-dimensional euclidean space that is closed under addition and scalar multiplication.
Linear subspace, in linear algebra, a subset of a vector space that is closed under addition and scalar multiplication
Subspace (bdsm), the psychological state of the submissive partner in a bdsm scene
Subspace (computer game), a two-dimensional space shooter computer game
Subspace (star trek), a medium for faster-than-light communications or travel
Subspace (single), a single by funker vogt
Subspace emissary, the single player adventure mode in the video game super smash bros. Brawl
Hyperspace (science fiction), a fictional dimension in science fiction sometimes referred to as subspace

-another thing is you say that quantum fluctuations happen in the fabric of space, but you forget the fact that space is in the universe. So you say that 'it's possible that the singularity emerged as a result of a quantum fluctuation. You are saying that tiny particles just happen to appear and are created from the fabrics of space, but if that is so where did the space come from. Another thing is you are contradicting modern science because modern science beleives that nothing exists outside of the universe and that the universe is expanding but not expanding into anything. Modern science says that nothing exists outside of the universe and that during inflation, hopefully you know what that is, space itself expanded. The current view is that the universe is not expanding into anything because all of the space that exists is inside of the universe and nothing exists outside of the universe. Thus if the universe is all the space there is and is not expanding into anything how can you say that the quantum fluctuations produced tiny particles in space which created a singularity, which produced the big bang? Where did this so called 'space' come from? You are being contradictory because modern science says there is no space that exists outside the universe? So where did this space come from that created tiny particles? How can there be space outside of the 'universe'? If the universe created all of the space there is, then how can you say that space created tiny particles that created the universe? This is contradictory? Where did this space come from? How long has it been there for? How was this space created? Please clarify this? It seems as if you are trying to avoid the inevitable point that you cannot explain the beginning of the universe, because you are starting to contradict yourself and seem to have no explanation to how the universe and everything before it came about, which leaves me to beleive that you have no theory or explanation. This means that god must be the only proof and way to explain the existence of the universe. It seems that you are running out of things to say and are now starting to contradict yourself.

TO Todaly:

That still doesn't explain what created the Universe! If the Big Bang did not create the Universe then what did? I guess the only likely answer has to be God.

is this question just here for one person to answer.
one person whho you think is wrong?
must you really try and prove to everybody that your "god" exists.
apparently to you a lot of peoples responses dont make sense.
but to me and a lot of other people your questions and "theories" dont make any sense either

Well the thing is that me and Todaly are friends and we were debating a final question but then Semi 1900 answered the question instead of Toadly and then things got a little uncivil and so my question was locked, but we are down to the final question of the debate that spanned 3 questions. This debate has been going on for about a month and we are slowly exhausting each other arguments and evidence, and now we will come to an agreement as this is the final question to determine it all.

"'Basically, the center of a black hole' I will disregard that mistake of yours."

You had said the universe started out as an atom, which is incorrect. Rather than disregard THAT mistake, I was using the Black Hole as an analogy to help you understand the concept of a singularity.

"Another thing is you are contradicting modern science because Modern Science beleives that nothing exists outside of the Universe and that the Universe is expanding but not expanding into anything."

No, actually modern science does not believe nothing exists outside of the universe. Modern science believes there is no such thing as "nothingness" as I explained in my previous post. There has never been, at any point, a total empty void or vacuum. We've known this for quite some time as a result of quantum mechanics.

"how can you say that the quantum fluctuations produced tiny particles in space which created a singularity, which produced the Big Bang? "

It's called the Casimir Effect, and it's been tested and observed several times.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/9747

And here's a better description of a quantum fluctuation
http://universe-review.ca/R03-01-quantumflu.htm

These particles which appear and disappear (read the articles to understand why), do not come from a definite point in our universe. However, they do happen randomly and constantly. It's possible that the singularity which created our universe came about this way, from a universe already in existence. It's likely that there are in fact multiple universes interacting with each other. Science fiction? Not really

http://www.phys.cwru.edu/~krauss/03ENDrev.html

When a universe is dead, or no longer existing, there is basically a zero energy field or close to a zero energy field, but quantum fluctuations are still happening. Sooner or later at least one of the quantum fluctuations will trigger another big bang.

I'd also like to ask you a few questions about this intelligent designer of yours. Where did he/she/it come from? Has God always been in existence? How is that possible? Why has God always existed? If God hasn't always existed, what created God? Why did God create the universe, or multiple universes, and only truly concern himself with life on one planet?

Or maybe it's heretical for us "bad guys" to ask these questions

well have fun with your little battle
but it really could have been done in your funmail

Okay well whatever, but my question is where did ALL OF THIS COME FROM, You Know the entire Multiverse with all of its universes. You still haven't told me when all of this came into existence. How long ago was the Multiverse created? How was it created? The Multiverse is actually not even a scientific discovery, it is a religious one.
-To postulate an infinity of unseen and unseeable universes just to explain the one we do see seems superficially contrary to Occam's Razor.

-Critics claim that these theories lack empirical correlation and testability, and without hard physical evidence are unfalsifiable; outside the methodology of scientific investigation to confirm or disprove.

-Som have argued that the job of a scientist is to provide fundamental explanations for observed phenomena, without making reference to observers. Resorting to anthropic principles constitutes a "lazy way out" of accounting for features such as the apparent fine-tuning of parameters in relation to the existence of life.

Personally I beleive in a Multiverse because it is described in my religion. In the Bhagavad-Gita God personally explains how the entire Multiverse was created and when it was created, but you have not told me this, so I still only have God to go off of as the only one who has answered the question of when and how was everything, Multiverse etc, created? Just answer this one question for me. By the way since my might be interested in this I will post a picture of my God creating the Multiverse on this post here.

Okay well whatever, but my question is where did ALL OF THIS COME FROM, You Know the entire Multiverse with all of its universes. You still haven't told me when all of this came into existence. How long ago was the Multiverse created? How was it created? The Multiverse is actually not even a scientific discovery, it is a religious one.
-To postulate an infinity of unseen and unseeable universes just to explain the one we do see seems superficially contrary to Occam's Razor.

-Critics claim that these theories lack empirical correlation and testability, and without hard physical evidence are unfalsifiable; outside the methodology of scientific investigation to confirm or disprove.

-Som have argued that the job of a scientist is to provide fundamental explanations for observed phenomena, without making reference to observers. Resorting to anthropic principles constitutes a "lazy way out" of accounting for features such as the apparent fine-tuning of parameters in relation to the existence of life.

Personally I beleive in a Multiverse because it is described in my religion. In the Bhagavad-Gita God personally explains how the entire Multiverse was created and when it was created, but you have not told me this, so I still only have God to go off of as the only one who has answered the question of when and how was everything, Multiverse etc, created? Just answer this one question for me. By the way since my might be interested in this I will post a picture of my God creating the Multiverse as my profile picture, so all you have to look at is my profile picture to see God creating the Multiverse.

I will now address your questions.

I'd also like to ask you a few questions about this intelligent designer of yours.
Where did he/she/it come from?
- God has always existed and He came from Krishnaloka a planet situated in the spiritual world beyond the material universes. The material universes are the Universes shown in my profile picture. God lives above that.

Has God always been in existence?
-Yes God has always been in existence

How is that possible?
-This is possible because God is a soul made of spirit like you and I. Living things are made up of spiritual energy so they are eternal. They have always existed and will never cease to exist. Life takes on material bodies that die out and wither away, but the soul is eternal and never dies out when the body dies, God is the Supreme Soul so He is also eternal.

Why has God always existed?
-There is no reason He just exists. I could say the same thing to you why are you existing?

If God hasn't always existed, what created God?
-I really don't need to answer this since I said that God has always existed, just letting you know.

Why did God create the universe, or multiple universes, and only truly concern himself with life on one planet?
-God created all of the universes because a long time ago when certain souls rebelled against Krsna (God), and wanted to enjoy life without Krsna, Krsna gave these souls the opportunity by creating the material universes. Krsna respects everyone's free will so he let the souls leave Krsnaloka and go to the material universes. In the material Universes souls take birth in various species on various planets due to their Karma. At first the souls are punished for their rebellion and sent to Hell. After spending many years on hellish planets, they move up to Earth-like planets where they first take birth as bacteria and then move up into more and more advanced species until they reach the human form. Once the human form is reached a soul can either degrade himself by being reborn an animal or a plant, the soul can be reborn on lower planets, or it can be reborn in Hell. On the other hand once a soul gets to the human form, he can be reborn as a human, be reborn on higher planets, celestial planets, or even go back to God Himself to stop the cycle of birth and death. Once the human form is reached the next life is determined soley on Karma and if a soul gets reborn as an animal he must take birth in all of the species above that animal too. He must climb the evolutionary ladder "if you will" . If a soul gets reborn in Hell then he will spend millions of years suffering in Hell and then be reborn on lower planets for millions of years, then once he reaches Earth he must be reborn into all 8 million 400 thousand species, starting with bacteria, before he gets a human birth again. If the soul gets promoted to celestial planets and is reborn there he will spend thousands of years there enjoying heavenly luxury but once his merit is exausted he will go back to Earth-like planets to live. The statement you make about God only concerning Himself with one planet is false. God made life on every planet, every moon, and every star in every universe. Most places have life that are much more advanced than here on Earth. God made life everywhere, but we cannot percieve all of this life. The simple explanation is the same reason why Bacteria cannot percieve human life. Human life is too complex for bacteria too understand so they cannot distinguish human civilization from nature. In the same way we cannot percieve life on other places like the Moon, Mercury, Mars, The Sun ect, etc, because there the life is too advanced for us to percieve just like human life is too advanced for a bacterium or a single-celled organism to percieve. Most places have much more advanced life than Earth does, and thus we cannnot perceive life on the Moon, Mars etc, just like the bacteria cannot percieve many life forms on Earth, due to the fact that most of the other life forms on Earth are much more advanced than the Bacteria. In the same way Humans can't perceive life elswhere in the Universe because most life in the Universe are much more advanced than Human life. This makes sense because Earth belongs to the lower planets so the lifeforms on Earth are the least intelligent and complex. Here lifeforms are made of carbon. On places such as the moon and the Sun lifeforms are made of Ether. The thing about the soul is it can't be destroyed. It can be burned, frozen destroyed by nuclear, atomic weapons etc. This is why life can exist on places such as the sun, because just like we have bodies adapted to the earth some creatures have fiery bodies adapted to the sun. God put different organisms in diferernt places for a reason. He put fish in the water because that is where they are comfortable etc. He made Earth for humans. This is why no matter how much you look for planets around the 70 sextillion stars you will never find a planet suitable for human life because God made different planets for different species. The other planets are either too hot too cold, or too poisonous for us to live in because they were made for other species and not us. I could explain to you much more, but I don't want it to get too long so I will make it short and end my explanation here. If you are interested in what I just said you can learn more from the Bhagavad-Gita As It Is from the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON). You can view the Bhagavad-Gita As It is and many other Vedic books for FREE, by going to http://www.Krishna.com. I hope I answered your questions, and I hope you answer mine. Thank You.

I'll funmail you a response to this.

bbbB,

*** "That still doesn't explain what created the Universe! If the Big Bang did not create the Universe then what did? "

Wouldn't we first have to determine that the universe WAS created, before trying to tackle the question of how it was created?

Relativity has proven that time is not something that the universe exists within, but rather, time is itself an aspect of the universe. To say 'the universe was created', implies there was a time when it did not exist. But that's impossible since time is not separate from the universe. Therefor, the universe exists uncreated.

Toadly :Me and Semi 1900 have already been e-mailing each other our long responses and now we are kind of tired of the question and have came to the conclusion that I will always beleive in God and Semi 1900 will never beleive in God. Since it is useless to keep arguing this Semi 1900 and I have both agreed to stop arguing this question because nobody's beleifs will change since either way God or Science cannot be proven. That is the result we have come up with. God or Science can not be 100 percent proven, so we have stopped arguing this, since there is no way to prove either position Atheism or Theism. Thank You.

BBB, I admire your courage and tenacity... Blessings... for standing up for what you believe in and for being able to share, and debate with getting steamed...

Have you heard of the new movie coming out in April??

http://www.expelledthemovie.com/?gclid=CLOxg9nnwpICFQEfFQod_DKiaw

Don't know what its about, it just mentioned big science holding out, sounded interesting.

BBB, it may or may not be possible to *prove* or *disprove* the existence of gods, but it is possible to prove which position is more reasonable; theism or atheism.

Isn't that worth something as well? But if you want to stop for now, that's fine. I'm confident you'll be back.

Well as I stated it isn't 100 percent possible to prove Theism or Atheism but as I mentioned Theism is about 1 Decillon (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) times more likely than Atheism but I guess that despite the odds it doesn't matter because you can't prove Theism 100 percent, so even though the odds are extremely in favor of Theism it can't be proven and there is a 1 out of a Decillion chance that Atheism could be correct.

bbb: Please show your working. I'd love to know how you calculated that "Theism is about 1 Decillion times more likely than Atheism".

Also, why should the existence of an eternal god be a more likely cause for the creation of the universe than anything else? All you're doing is replacing one question (how did the universe begin) with a much bigger one (why does this god exist, where did she come from, etc).

Finally, even if you were correct, and some sort of omnipotent, eternal being created the universe, why suppose that it's the particular being you believe in? Given all the possible supreme beings, it seems far more likely that it's _not_.

"Semi 1900 will never beleive in God"

Somewhere along the line, I failed to inform you that I'm agnostic. It's not that I don't believe in God, it's that I don't know that's is possible to determine if God exists.

"Semi 1900 and I have both agreed to stop arguing this question because nobody's beleifs will change since either way God or Science cannot be proven."

Well, that and I realized that researching and posting links to scientific journals on the Big Bang was apparently a waste of my time

I do have to say your "Odds of Theism vs. Atheism" gave me a chuckle. I'm impressed that you wrote out all those 0's. However, what you're actually referring to are not the odds of which one is correct, but the fact that most of the planet's population are theists, which some have said makes it more likely that theists are right and atheists are wrong. However, as arachnid correctly points out, that's not the issue; the issue is that theism itself is not a religion, therefore only one type of theism could even be right and all others wrong. Using those odds, it's unlikely that any of them are right.

Take you, amblessed and orion for example. You've all been arguing against us in favor of theism, but they are Christians, and you are a Krishna follower. Your own concepts of this supreme deity that created everything are wildly different, and they cannot both be correct.

If a supreme deity did create everything and left us proof, how is it possible that we end up with both your belief system and their belief system, which are both mutually exclusive?

Having looked at bbb's postings I am once more reminded that people are not necessarily logical creatures.He spouts a lot of pseudo-science, and though I have not made a deep study of astronomy and the Big Bang Theory I am pretty sure that a real expert would rip hime to pieces. When all is said and done ,he admits that he cannot explain the apparent "intelligent design" of the Universe. Why then make the completely illogical invention of an intelligence which is responsible for Creation-God? Still no answer to the old old question "Who created God ?" If there were some "being" we call God , he would be an extremely complex being and the creation of such a complex being from nothing would be an even more unlikely(not to say impossible) occurrence with even longer odds than the ones he quotes. If anyone is going to say God has always existed then they must by the same token be able to conceive that the Universe has also always existed Can bbb give us his pseudo-scientific odds for the birth of God ? As others have said in various replies to his ramblings about the apparently fine-tuned "balance" of planetary orbits etc. They are only there because with all the trillions of cosmic bodies some WILL fall into the certain narrow criteria, those which didn't would not be there - they are elsewhere.
At least evolutionary science does not proclaim that the complex life systems we see today were created in six days !

To Arachnid:

I have explained how I came up with my Decillion to 1 possibilities in my God Exists 2-The Revival question. You ask why I beleive my God is the real God. I will tell you. I have studied all religions and Krishna is the only person who has ever claimed to be God. Islam belives that Mohhamed is the prophet of God and Allah is just another word for God. Jesus never said he was God, but that he was just His son. So Allah is just another name for Krishna in arabic and Jesus is Krishna's son. Yahweh in the Judaism tradition can also mean Krishna. There is no God in Buddhism, confuciasim, or Shintoism. Jainism doesn't believe in a Supreme deity. Wiccans don't really believe in a Supreme being but in nature which Krishna created. Satanists don't actually believe that Satan is God, but that there really is no Supreme God. After looking over almost all religions I have found that Krishna is the only Self-Proclaimed God. Nobody else ever claims to be God and Krishna has said that he has sent down His own sons and prophets such as Jesus, Mohammed, and Buddha to preach God Consciousness to different people in different parts of the world. I hope that answered your question.

To Semi 1900:

Yes I agreed with you cannot prove God's existence 100 percent and you cannot disprove it 100 percent either. I actually remember you saying you didn't believe in God but whatever.

"Well, that and I realized that researching and posting links to scientific journals on the Big Bang was apparently a waste of my time"

-The point is you failed to tell me how the Multiverse was created. How was everything created and how can everything come from nothing. Since science does not know this I can assume that it is wrong. Only religion explains how all of the Universes were created.
-To address another concern of yours you ask about what God is real. All Gods are one in the same. Krishna says he sends down His sons and prophets such as Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Moses etc. to spread God conciousness to different people in different places. So Allah and Yaweh are just other names of Krishna in different languages. Krishna has many names. So it is not that any one religion is different from another. They all talk about the same loving God Krishna. Jesus is the son of Krishna and Jesus preached the same message as Krishna. Mohhamed was a prophet sent down by Krishna to teach love of God. Krishna incarnated as Buddha Himself, if you see His 10 dasavatars, to spread the message of nonviolence. So all religons are pretty much the same and they all revolve around Krishna. For more information look at my post to Arachnid and also vistit http://www.Krishna.com. I hope I answered your question. Thank You.

To: Leogee

As I have already explained Science is illogical because it cannot explain how the Multiverse was created. I ask how the Big Bang was created and you people say that it was created by another universe and then I ask how all of these "universes" were created and you have no clue. God explains how he created all the many universes, but science does not. I hope I answered your question. Thank You.

bbb, I'd like to know where you get off thinking science is illogical, I take it you're oblivious to the fact you don't even understand it.

Yeah, you don't even understand the basics of the Big Bang. The multiverse is hypothetical.

You lack a natural explanation, or fail to understand or believe the evaluated evidence, so you assume God did it. God is just a myth created by humans.