Did jesus actually exist?

I've seen Zeitgeist The Movie about 5 times. You can say the movie is not credible & misleading but I'm currenty not sure what to believe concerning whether Jesus actually lived on earth or if hes truely based in the sun as the film claims.

toadaly said: orion, the early church father Tertullian wrote numerous apologetics arguing that Jesus was real and not the fabrication of men. He would not have done that unless even people in the 2nd century were claiming Jesus was fiction".

toadaly, even in Jesus' own lifetime many doubted that He was God. Even people in His town where He grew up.

Yes, I know who Tertullian was. He was not any religion until later in life when he became a Catholic and ordained a priest, but that didn't last, so he joined another religious cult, which fell thru again, so he started his own sect.

He translated some of the new writings into Latin. There were books in the New Testiment which he disapproved of and some that were not in the Bible that he thought should have been there...

orion, Tertullian records doubt that Jesus existed at all, not merely doubt that he was a god. That was the main point of my post above. ...doubt in the very historical existence of Jesus goes back to the foundations of the church. It isn't a new phenomenon as people seem to think.

In Grecko-Roman culture, stories equally fantastic to Jesus' were a dime a dozen anyway. Even reputable historians such as Josephus engaged in fanciful storytelling, such as his description about flying chariots around Jerusalem.

It was a superstitious age in which most people believed any fantastic tale they couldn't verify as false. If you've read any of the exchanges between these people, it's amazing civilization thrived. The only ones employing reason were the philosophers, and even their reasoning was horribly flawed by modern standards. These are the people to whom Justin Martyr and Tertullian addressed many of their apologetics.

The point I made above was that Tertullian was wishy washy to say the least. He was an atheist, then a Catholic, even a priest, then he dropped out and into another cult, after that he started his own cult...all of which shows that he was not strongly settled in one direction or another, but free-lancing on any and all ideas.

toadaly, it is very common knowledge that there have always been people who have doubted that Jesus was God, but it doesn't detract from the truth. He was and Is God.

orion,

My point was that people have doubted not only that Jesus was god from the beginning, but also his very existence. I'm still not sure if we agree that there was doubt in Jesus' very existence in early records.

You sort of implied it, but an outright "yes, people doubted Jesus even existed in the 2nd century" would be appreciated, if indeed that is your position.

Yes toadaly, there were (and have always been) people from the beginning doubting that Jesus ever existed. I don't see what difference that makes, because He did exist and still does, and those who do not want to believe He did, they're just out of luck.

Many people who want to discredit Jesus' existance on earth will down-play what He did and said while alive. It doesn't matter how they go about their dirty little snipping because those of us who know He lives (and lived then) will not doubt Him.

Jesus affected thousands of lives while He lived on earth. He fed thousands, the mircles He did, He healed hundred if not thousands, preached the holy word to all who came to Him to learn. He made such a difference in our world that He will always be remembered and worshipped.

The Bible is still the most sold book every year!

amblessed, mine too...AMEN!

yeah dude you must be stupid...zietgiest is not a credible movie...lmao

orion, are you actually arguing that book sales prove truth!?

If you want to convince those who think Jesus is a legendary/mythical/fictional that he actually existed, you have to do more than argue to the effect of "people don't like Jesus". Those arguing that Jesus probably never existed have reasons to believe that independent of a disdain for the gospel message.

Jesus existed as a historical person. He was called Yeshuah or Y'shuah and he was a Jewish man. He lived a life. If you take a college history class, even in a secular college, you will learn from your professors that he did really exist in history. I got a C in that class, because I was bored and it was really difficult on the tests.
Even secular historians know he actually existed. Did King Arthur really exist?
Probably not, but Arthurian legend is fun to read about.

*** "Jesus existed as a historical person. " ... "Even secular historians know he actually existed. "

It's certainly true that MOST historians think Jesus actually existed as a person. However, most historians are either Christian or biased to the idea of a historical Jesus for other religious reasons.

But if you limit the field to 'secular' historians (aka, atheists), it's no longer cut and dry.

There is a raging debate among secular historians as to whether or not there is a shred of a historical Jesus at all. As best I can tell, there is no consensus beyond "if there was a historical Jesus, we know nothing about him".

If anything, secular historians are leaning toward the idea that Jesus is a fictional character in an allegorical story.

So when it all comes down to it this is about what atheist believe not what the group (historians) believe. Tell me, Do you think prince Siddhartha lived? or for that matter Mohammad?

I haven't studied anything in regards to prince Siddhartha or Mohammad, so I have no idea if they were historical or not.

But it isn't about what atheists believe, or about what historians tend to believe, it's about the simplest hypothesis that explains the evidence in the most straightforward way.

The problem with the idea that Jesus was a normal, albeit extraordinary, man, who more or less matches the Gospel stories except for the magical aspects, is that it leaves gaping questions that are simply inexplicable, such as, why does Paul seem to know next to nothing about Jesus as a man, or how is it that Marcion's docetism and various gnostic heresies are just as popular as Christianity in the earliest records. The list of incongruities is large.

Of course, the Christian will have theological answers to all this , but that isn't overtly considered by scholars. So from a scholarly perspective, the idea of simply stripping off the magical aspects and keeping what's left doesn't work.

I believe the man Jesus probably did exist, but I don't believe he was "divine". I think the people of his time WANTED him to be the "messiah" and made him into a being they WANTED him to be. And no way do I believe that any dead body ever came back to life. The whole thing was shrouded in mystery. As for those who are so sure he rose from the dead...how can anyone truly know what happened over 2,000 years ago? We can be sure of NOTHING that occurred or did not occur back then. You gotta keep it real!

Also -- the whole idea of a "messiah" -- just what is it we're supposed to be "saved" from? Most of those stories are no more than myths.

OF course Hun.
dont you never doubt that.

:]

yah I have actually been wondering the same thing.
I've never seen that movie before tho haha.
and I went to church havent really gone much since I got confermnd.
but like im confused on the whole thing bc if it says he created adam and eve how was he created than?

I agree with amblessed The devil wants us to put our eyes on anything but the truth the bible is the word of God Jesus had to come and die for our sins. back in the years before christ they use to sacrfice animals for the blood could cover sin But when jesus came to earth he came the purpose to provide the only way to have our sins washed away but this is why the bible says we must except him in our hearts this is how we get his free gift to us by believing in him . because God did not send his son to die in vain but for us to have a chance for everlasting Life. thats why bible says whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Jesus washes away are sin with his blood . And Jesus makes all thing new praise the Lord Jesus christ there in no one else who has done so much for us.

*** Jesus had to come and die for our sins

...one would think that an omnipotent God could not be compelled to do anything, and than an omniscient God could figure out something beside a "perfect" human sacrifice to appease appease his own absurd expectations.